Why National Parks Matter!

What is the difference between a state park and a national park? What value do national parks bring to society? Are national parks accessible to everyone? 

Join Amber and Kendra to answer those questions and more! 

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Transcript

Amber Williams:   0:00
This is Episode 27. Why National parks Matter? Welcome to Wife Link Matters where we explore why small topics have big impacts. I'm your host, Amber Williams,

Kendra Clark:   0:27
and I'm your host, Kendra Clark. What

Kendra Clark:   0:28
is the difference

Kendra Clark:   0:29
between a coyote and a flea? I don't know. One house on the prairie and the other Prowse on the Harry.

Amber Williams:   0:37
What? All right, So today's topic is the national parks. The first national park was Yellowstone, and that was established with the National Park by Congress in 18 72 is part of the Protection Act, and it was signed by You'll assist Grant. It consisted of roughly a 1,000,002 100,000 acres across Wyoming, Montana and Idaho. Um, some of the national parks that followed Yellowstone, where Mackinac Mackin on National Park, uh, Sequoia National Park, Kings Canyon and Yosemite Yosemite

Kendra Clark:   1:19
has, like, kind of an interesting story. I'm Amber and I watched a Drunk History doesn't episode about national parks and that kind of talk about the story of Yosemite and which was kind of founded by Theodore Roosevelt. But part of it is because there were developers who are warning to build over that area and There was a guy named John Mirror who's considered the father of national parks. The drunk history calls him Crunchy Granola. Ogi. Number one

Amber Williams:   1:47
Hey, wasn't crunchy granola, though He really Woz And, um, he's that corky dude. But basically, somehow Theodore

Kendra Clark:   1:56
Roosevelt and his team ended up coming out to Yosemite in meeting with John Mirror, and he and Roosevelt and John Mercer snuck away from the rest of the group. The with Roosevelt's personal chef, apparently. And, ah, they ended up camping for three days and they ended up getting a big snowstorm, and they ended up having like, 40 wool blankets

Amber Williams:   2:24
that they slept under, which I don't know what

Kendra Clark:   2:26
I would take 40 giant blankets. Camping is

Amber Williams:   2:29
like a very like all this on

Kendra Clark:   2:30
the National Park websites. It was like, This isn't like folklore. A. This is like true story was

Amber Williams:   2:35
both on drunk history and, uh, actual relevant sources,

Kendra Clark:   2:39
but it's just kind of a bizarre. Even the 40 blankets is mentioned on the National Park. Service is such a weird rod, fat toe like add on there. But, um,

Amber Williams:   2:48
so John Muir was introduced to Yosemite by James Mason Hatch ings, and that name's gonna come up again later, but John Muir was born in 18 38 and he died in 1914. He was called the Father of the National Parks, or John of the Mountains. He was known for writing letters and essays and books describing his adventures, especially from the Sierra Nevada. He helped preserve Yosemite National Valley in Sequoia National Park. His works were considered to have inspired readers, members of Congress and presidents to take action to preserve large, large nature areas. So he was born in Scotland and he might be migrated with his family. Um, initially to Wisconsin. He grew up with a very strict faith. And in February of 18 sixties, 18 66 he made his way to Ontario and then Annapolis, where he worked in a factory. Um, he was considered very smart. He created a lot toe, make the factory more efficient. I think he created a few inventions, and then there was a factory accident and he went blind for like, a year and 1/2 and he swore like if he ever got his vision back, he was gonna quit his job and he was going to seal of the all of what America had to offer. He hiked all the way from, I think, Indianapolis to Florida, and I once he got his vision back, and then he was gonna make his way to South America. But he got malaria. And so he was like, Nah, fam, I'm going to California. But California, I'm going to go see you somebody because I heard this place is legit. So, um, so he hiked all the way across the country. And, um once he gained his eyesight. And so from Indianapolis, it was a roughly 1000 miles to the Gulf of Mexico. He spent very little money. He only brought a change of underclothes and brought it and brought a plant press with him. He walked almost like 50 miles in two days. Um, he was known for talking to the flowers in the rocks when he was passing through nature. Crunchy granola. Oh, gee, everyone. Yes. And he was also known to see a miraculous sight and put his head between his knees and look at the world upside down. But he was brought to Yosemite by, um, James Mason Hutchings, and he went to somebody to kind of Do what the world or what the country did for Niagara Falls. Niagara Falls was the first state park, and it kind of turned into a bit of a circus. It, like it was known for a little while, is the honeymoon capital. But it just became a tourist attraction, and there was just like a circus. And there was, like, vibrating beds and all of these things and, like it just became so like on there were lights on the waterfalls and all of these things. And so that became a little It wasn't his thing. He wanted it to be purely than the national parks. So he wanted to talk about the greatness of the national parks. But with that, it brought attention, which was the goal. But it also started attorney somebody into a circus. Once he left and went back to his family to stay with Hiss, his wife and his child. And by the time he had gone back to Yosemite, people had they were throwing flames off of the cliffs and they were doing all of these things that were just completely ridiculous. And you can find all of this in the Ken Burns documentary A Swell. And so he was like, No, he's like This is sacred and like so his sacred grounds were just turn into something stupid and like a tourist attraction, that was what they wanted to avoid. So that's kind of like the story of John Muir. And, um, again, you can find more of this in The Burns documentary and Drunk History. Then we have John F. Lacey. He's another kind of key figure in the national parks, and we're gonna talk about him a little bit more to or some of, ah, how he still affects our lives today. He was a Republican congressman from Oskaloosa. I think that size it Iowa. He had seen personally how Wallace the national parks could be like firsthand because he got Rob's in his stage coach when he was going through Yellowstone by a bunch of bandits. And so he saw how completely crazy it waas. And so, in 1906 Theodore was about signing to affect the Antiquities Act, Um, and this gave presidents the right to declare national monuments to preserve areas of national or historic interest. So then Theodore Roosevelt also declared Devil's Tower a National Park. When the national parks were first managed, they didn't have a budget. They didn't have anything. They had somebody that was designated as like the park superintendent. But they just didn't have the resources to protect the land from poaching, whether it be for natural materials such as wood and and whatnot or from the animals. The Army was sent to go manage Yellowstone, and they built a fort Yellowstone. It's the Army did are really miraculous. Job of managing Yellowstone National Park. So much so that a lot of the policies that they put in place are still used. Today. They developed regulations that put emphasis on conservation, protection and safety for the visitors. So it's kind of cool to think about how the Army developed something so great and and even from the beginning, um, with the vision of the national parks. Ulysses Grant had a very he had a love for the Army Corps of Engineers. Um, and so he kind of like it was kind of a relationship between the national parks and the Army Corps of Engineer, and it was a relative relationship that has continued through the years. Ulysses Grant was he loved that, you know, Union Army. In the Civil War, he was raised in Ohio. He had a love of horses. He went to West Point. He resigned from the Army and lived in poverty. For seven years, he stabilized a Postwar economy and created the Department of Justice. He prosecuted the K k K and appointed African Americans and Jewish Americans to prominent positions. One of the problems with the national parks is when it was established, it was envisioned as a pleasuring ground for all Americans, except for Native Americans who were effectively, like, excluded from the national parks. The Army introduced what we know as today as the Lacey act. So there was a Lacey Act of 18 94 um 1900 in 1907 So each lacey act as something different. I didn't realize that there could be acts like for multiple years, but

Kendra Clark:   9:55
there was also a KN updated version in 2008 as well.

Amber Williams:   9:58
Yes, yes. And so, um, in 18 94 that was first put into place to protect Yellowstone. And then in 1900 white wildlife and fish was established. And in 1907 this provided an allotment of land to Native Americans. But the first time that this was really enforced was after the 2008 Lacey act, and basically just protected the lance. The wildlife, I think. And then it was expanded in 2008 to protect the plants and plant products such as timber and paper. So this was like landmark legislation. Can you guess what company was? What kind of company was like? It was first used to enforce lumber companies almost yet. It was definitely lumber. It was actually the first time this was enforced was actually against a guitar company based out of national. Yeah, remember, remember that now the company wasn't Gibson Gibson guitars that was actually like the first know my second brand of guitar that I owned. But, um so it it was first. It was first enforced in 2012 and this was like monumental because the first time in any national park even, I think for on the world where this had been, um, it was like a we mean business. It was enforced by the Environmental Investigation Agency, the Department of Justice, and the warrant was acted on by U s wildlife and fish. Um, and they also have their own federal agents. Just is like every government agency and does So it was written about in the National Nashville Business Journal and the Department of Justice. So how was it enforced? They were using, like, false declaration statements with Blake Customs. Somehow I don't I don't know the ins and outs of it, but it was also logged through satellite imagery of logging and protected areas, fiber testing and random would inspections. So a while ago, Kendra and I had met a guy who made an app that was like two track would and like, lumber. And I was like, Why would that be important? Oh, yeah, and I'm like, I didn't know. This is why that's important. So backtrack to 1916 Woodrow Wilson established in our National Park Service, and I believe at this point they probably have a budget in place. But when we get into people, you know, one of the things that the vision of the national parks was that it was a pleasure in ground for all Americans except for Native Americans. But there's still some problems with how people of certain demographics enjoyed those parks today?

Kendra Clark:   12:37
Yes, so there's definitely, like, good and bad and the way they deal with things. Um, they've been very intentional on making sure to include people with disabilities they actually have an access past that is free. Gives a free lifetime pass that's available to US citizens. I have. And we'll Amper U S citizens and permanent residents that have a permanent disability. You have to verify that through, like a kind of a doctor's letter or okay, um, just some sort of documentation of the disability. But they also have Braille alternatives to although their print materials they have sign language interpreters for tours, they have camping sites and trails that interest reveal it will chair accessible. Okay, Um, and even as far back is 1979 the National Park Service. That was when they formally announced they wanted to, um, deal with accessibility accessibility issues on a national level rather than a site by site, because before it was just up to the individual parks. But in 1979 they say, OK, this is a mandate for everybody, so you better get it together and figure it out. In 2000 the director actually issued an order called Order 42 and basically said that the federal government was required to provide accessibility and buildings and program for the universal design and so said that suit service's must be inclusive rather than special. So they couldn't just have a like, if you go to this building, Well, if you have some sort of disability, you go to this room, they had to make all the areas of the building accessible rather than like segregating them, I guess. Okay, Um, so something They've definitely made a priority. I mean, obviously there are gonna be part to the park, that arm or treacherous that, like, um, someone who doesn't even have a disability like I wouldn't be able to deal with, Um uh, they try to make his much accessible as possible.

Amber Williams:   14:36
Okay. And so, um, I think my first time going to Yellowstone, I was like, 16 or 17 years old, and I noticed something when I was there, and there wasn't a lot of diversity with the people that were there. There are a lot of people. There were a lot of groups of Asians, but there weren't very many black people and I remember noticing that when I was 16 or 17 and I just kind of took note of it. And then this last year I went to Katya National Park, which was beautiful, and it was the same thing, like I didn't see. Like if I saw people of color, I could have counted them on my hands like me, and it was crowded with people when I was there. Um, and that's like another ongoing issue that the national parks have to deal with. And so, and there's like a long history of kind of who has been able to go to national parks and who hasn't it? It's well known that people of color visit the national parks less than white people in an article by the George Right Forum called People of Color and their constraints to national parks there several limiting factors as to why people of color don't go to national parks to the same extent that white people do. Um, and some of these reasons include limited Soc Elect No economic resource is cultural factors and boundary maintenance, so that's kind of there's pressure from other people of color not to do things that are predominantly white or part of like the white culture. And, uh, there's discrimination and white racial frames. So basically, people of color tend to experience discrimination either from the park staff or, more predominantly from other park goers. So quote white Americans, particularly those who are affluent, retune, routinely passed on to their Children skills, knowledge and appreciation for the outdoors, unquote. And so that's basically like that provides encouragement, introduction and equipment. And there's a lot that I do in the national parks and outdoors that I had to be taught from other people. And if you don't have that access is gonna be a little bit harder for you to do those things. Um, was there

Kendra Clark:   17:06
segregation like like when schools and bathrooms was segregated? Was there segregation within the national parks as well?

Amber Williams:   17:14
Yes, and up until 1964 with the Civil Rights Act, many people of color were banned or separated from public recreational sites. Efforts to integrate recreation areas often resulted in violence. So if the government was like, Hey, we're gonna we're gonna implement this serious for everyone in the park goers would incite violence of some way so and and That's another thing. If somebody of color experience racism and harassment in that fashion in, they kind of gives him a negative where they're more prone to have just a negative experience and therefore, like a negative view off the national parks and people of color according to the form. Again, people of color are often treated with suspicion. Stereotypes of notoriety. Um, they experienced discrimination most often from other visitors on which creates a negative association for the parks. You know, I mentioned, like the pressures or, like the boundary cultural boundary maintenance people of color is associate these spaces as white spaces on Lee. And therefore they were. It's perceived being off limits to them. And as far as limited, socioeconomic resource is absolute. Americans are three times more likely to visit the national parks as compared to support Americans. Um, and there's a few things that play into that we're gonna get into, like the economic part. But one of the things that really contributes to park attendants is the gas prices, and we can see this, um, two examples of this in history. So right now the parks are booming, and part of that it's because of cheap gas, and the other part of this is social media and, ah so between, Like everybody like tagging their location and cheap gas prices. The the national parks are experiencing like a huge boom. But during the recession, when gas prices were high, they were really concerned that they weren't getting enough attendant Steven justify. Some of the park resource is going

Kendra Clark:   19:19
to get back to like the, um, like minorities. Because do you like you talk about like obviously, people of color are going to our Maur disproportionately people in poverty. But there's also like a history of like the outdoors, especially in light, more rural areas being very hostile to people of color, especially African Americans. And so you think about it. I know I've heard people of color talk about, like, not driving through, like, rural areas in the South, like even today. They don't feel safe because of the history and where places where you've been told like, Hey, you don't belong here like re integrating back into that is very difficult like,

Amber Williams:   20:07
and one of the books that I read kind of talks about, So I I read a little bit of Caroline Phineas book Black Faces in White Spaces Basis. Basically, she talks about like a white wilderness is a socially constructed and grounded in race class and gender cultural ideologies. And, um, whiteness is a way of knowing becomes the way of understanding our environment and through representation of rhetoric, becomes part of our education system. So she also recognizes that, like since the beginning of like when John, your, um was, like, kind of like an environmental activist, not a lot of people of color have established themselves as environment like prominent environmental activists, Um, because they feel cut out. Like so she quotes Duveen in moose cow that she of 2001 murder is that alright? Racial ization and representation are not passive, that there are not a passive process. They also have power to determine who actually participates in environmental related activities and who does not. Ah, which voices are heard in environmental debates in which voices are not so basically like. It's our own social construct, both from whites and people of color that like, kind of excludes, which is unfortunate. Yeah, but I can never remember

Kendra Clark:   21:43
the name, but there's also like, um, phenomenon and It talks about how people are, particularly people who are impoverished and that doesn't to be more. People of color are kind of locked into their communities, and they've never make it outside. That, like the example they always give, is They're our neighbor, you know, kids who live in neighborhoods in L. A. And they have the beach, you know, in the 10 minutes away. But they've never seen the ocean. And so there's a lot of different barriers that limit people from being able to. I think, like are like the closest National National Park. But we have some national monuments that are close by, but the closest national park is two hours away. And so for some people, that's just not feasible to be able to just up and go somewhere with that, if you're gonna take it to our trip, or you're going to go to a city where things that do or nature where in never area where he's mostly been discriminated against in historically so but national parks are good for economics in rural areas, particularly in the West. In the 2018 visitor, spending in communities near national part resulted in

Amber Williams:   22:57
roughly like

Kendra Clark:   22:58
$40.1 billion into the economy, which is a lot of money. $41 billion.40.1 billion 0.1. Okay, Billy. And and it also ended up supporting roughly. Yeah. Okay. And they supported roughly 329,000 jobs. 268 of those exist in what they consider gateway communities and gateway communities are those that are within a 60 mile radius of a park. Okay. And what they found is that not only where people go into the parks, but they were also more likely to spend time in those gateway community and spending more money. Obviously, lodging expenses accounted for the largest share of that spending. Obviously about there's, like food and all the other things that go along with that. And in 2011 they were actually ah, 100 economist who wrote a letter to President Obama and they were urging him to. And this is their exact quote. It says to create jobs, support businesses by investing in our public lands infrastructure and establishing new areas such as parks, wilderness and monuments. And they said that federal public lands were central to the West economic future, especially as some of your bigger states in the West are seeing their populations dwindle as people moved to other areas into this a way to keep those economies going. So providing jobs. Um, one thing that was interesting when you're looking at the numbers they was 2018 actually had less

Amber Williams:   24:37
visitors than 2017.

Kendra Clark:   24:40
But the visitors that came spent more money. Interesting. So So that's overall. There was a bigger economic, their

Amber Williams:   24:48
arm or impact Americans going. Probably That's why the same like,

Kendra Clark:   24:54
because there is definitely a good thing for the economy, which is on something you really think about parks really relating to use things like a pretty place to get a look at nature. But it does provide that economic value as well.

Amber Williams:   25:06
So there's national parks around the world, too, and they can be registered through the International Union for Conservation of Nature. So it's a membership Union composed of both government and civil society organizations. Um, I think the country with the most the national parks is Australia, but I don't have that in my notes, but it kind of makes you said to think about that, considering all the wild fires happening right out, like roughly a 1,000,000,000 animals have passed. Unfortunately, um, but there's a lot that kind of happens because of national parks, and we're gonna expand a little bit on this further, some of which include business and biodiversity, climate change prevention measures, ecosystem management, environmental law, protected areas, water and Jenner said this organization kind of, ah, mentors organizations that choose to create a national bark. Even Afghanistan has to national parks for them. Accent. And, uh, it looks absolutely stunning. From the photos, it's, um, it's called Bandy A mirror, I think. National Park. I think it's how you say it, Um, and it is kind of known as Afghanistan's oasis of peace. Um, according to a CNN article by J. Gentile June 2018 quote. You can camp. You can picnic. You can even rent a swan-shaped paddleboat to navigate one of 60 blue lakes that, oh, that shimmer in the Hindu Kush mountains. Unquote, um, it's kind of like the equivalent of Afghanistan's Grand Canyon. Like the photos are stunning. It's kind of recognized as a beacon of stability through the decades of war, and it's something that the country Afghanistan should take. They take a lot of Brighton, and as they should, it looks absolutely stunning. Some at one point, it's referred to as like poetry for the eyes. Um, so there's some cool things that happened here. There are female Park Rangers. The National park is the only place where men and women can both partake in the same sports activity. And that is the marathon of Afghanistan. Um, so it's the only mixed-gender sporting event. Roughly 420 runners participate, half of which are women. Um, in on average, there are roughly 25,000 visitors a year. Um, so in 2018 actually, that number spiked to 169,000 visitors. Wow. So I think that's pretty impressive, considering it's, you know, been through decades and decades of war constant. Um, and it actually part of the reason for the boom is because of improved surface roads, up and social media. So of their wildlife, they are known to have bears, hyenas and leopards, which is crazy. I was kind of crazy. So going back to like national parks and accessibility, Um, I was like, Well, what kind of what are some of the differences between, like a national park and state park? So and I was kind of surprised by what I found. Um, some of the differences are national parks must share four characteristics. Each one must be an outstanding example of a particular resource. It must be true and accurate, relatively unspoiled. Um, by people. It must showcase natural or cultural themes in our nation's heritage and provide opportunities for recreation in public use. Um, any new additions to national parks must be approved by Congress, And some of the big things that really separate national parks versus state parks is the funding and the regulations. Believe it or not, state parks can oftentimes be overlooked. And they may not necessarily get the attention that they deserve, because there are some pretty spectacular state parks like Glenn Walk INS State Park in New York, Hocking Hills State Park in Ohio, and they're generally more accessible to urban population so that my state parks might kind of fill in the gap for minorities, whereas like national parks, tend to be a little bit harder to get to you. The other thing that sets state parks aside from national parks is on enough. There's more amenities, usually with a state park. So I thought that was kind of interesting because I assumed it would be the other way around. Why don't we

Kendra Clark:   30:04
started talking about this topic? Amber was asking, Had I been to any national parks and I grew up, but I didn't grow up. I grew up mostly in Alabama, but we lived in right outside of Knoxville for three or four years, and so we went to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park quite a bit. We went to Kate's Cove and would count all the gear and do all that, so he definitely went there a lot of other and that I haven't been to. I've been to national monuments, but not so much. Parks have been to a ton of state parks both in Alabama and Georgia and South Carolina, North Carolina and Tennessee. So I've definitely spent more time because they are a lot closer and

Amber Williams:   30:46
they do tend

Kendra Clark:   30:47
to have a lot of really good resource is and viewing and raking and all the things that you would get at a national park, just without all the grander grand juror, I guess

Amber Williams:   30:57
in a lot of state parks are usually cheaper to visit. Sometimes you don't have to pay it all in the state of Georgia. I think you have to pay like a parking fee. Usually, or you can have, like, A membership. But the great Smoky Mountains is actually the park. It's that gets the most visibility. They get roughly 11 and 1/2 1,000,000 visitors each year.  What wouldn't come second his eye on, uh, they're in the top five. Number two is the green

Kendra Clark:   31:28
Oh, the Grand Canyon. And yeah, that makes sense.

Amber Williams:   31:30
And it's like 6.3 million. Um, the number three is the Rocky Mountains. Roughly four and 1/2 1,000,000 then. Zion, I haven't been designed, and yet I

Kendra Clark:   31:39
really wanna go either. But it came up. It kept continuously coming up in my recent. So, um, I don't even know where it is

Amber Williams:   31:46
our wishes, but not I don't think I've been that his eye on Yellowstone. I was lucky enough to get a Yellowstone with 4.1 million Yosemite at four million at Katya, Uh, the Grand Tetons, Olympic and then Glacier after that. So there's also a difference between national forests and national parks. The national parks aimed to preserve the landscape, whereas national forests are you know, certain commercial activities like locking and mining can take place in those areas, and there's usually fewer recreational restrictions. Many may allow dogs and trip on the trails or hunting, but so one of the reasons that they wanted to establish the national parks is because they found with Niagara Falls State Park, which was the first state park ever. People didn't really take care of it, and they wanted people to have a sense of ownership with the parks that they went to, whether is in their state or out of their state. And so, by having these national parks, every visitor can claim some sort of like ownership or take pride in taking care of those parks. Um, well, we're doing

Kendra Clark:   32:59
our research for national parks. One of the things that I found interesting is how national parks have really played a role in science research. So the National Park Service has researchers that work actively in 300 of their 417 park sites over a variety of different scientific fields, and this goes back even before the National Park Service was created. So if you look at Joseph Grinnell, he documented the distribution of the animals in Yosemite as far back as 1914. And

Amber Williams:   33:35
led to

Kendra Clark:   33:36
the ecological niche theory. So what he found was that their distribution corresponded to different habitats, that they found that, like, basically, like, certain animals need certain environments, which is kind of crazy. They didn't think about it before, but it can lead to that theory. Okay, um but also, before they created this theory, it was unclear how the loss of an animal or plant would affect the rest of the environment. So it became really important. Like how we look at animals and migration. Bees and beavers, all of our keystone species were speaking this piece Keystone species. They also learned how to integrate a keystone species back into the wilderness. So I think it was in Yellowstone. May double-check real quick. Yeah. Um, I think it was yes. And Yellowstone. They actually reintroduced gray wolves, which are keystone species into the environment, and that he really I didn't know how that was gonna play out and how it was going to affect all the other animals because there was always a chance. Like the gray wolves could just kind of come in and kill everything for lack of better words. But

Amber Williams:   34:45
they didn't end up

Kendra Clark:   34:45
maintaining, really helping maintain really healthy go systems. They discover carbon dating in national parks. Which is how they what they used to determine the age of a fossils. And this was discovered by nuclear physicist Willard Libby at Toll Springs Fossil Beds National Park, which is in Las Vegas. Okay, um, but I don't

Kendra Clark:   35:07
think like I guess I should think of Las Vegas is like a place for

Kendra Clark:   35:10
a national part. By mainly just think of, like all the like Vegas, like realizing thing. Um, I am a surrounded by desert pretty much that makes it so they would have a national park out there. Um, but they've also studied the different dynamic natures of the coastal region. So how wind and waves and tides affect the coast. They studied how human water use effects. Natural systems, Um, and one of the biggest areas is actually how they've studied climate change. Because what's interesting about national parks is it is an intact natural landscape that is mostly free from any other kind of interaction or disruption. You can't really create a pure system, tau. Um, evaluate. But a national part's gonna be the closest. You come too.

Amber Williams:   36:03
There are some problems over all that national parks are kind of facing as a whole one. You know, every part of the government is constrained by the budget, but some of the other things that they face some issues with it's like waste management, air pollution, aging infrastructure, protecting the wildlife and invasive species, climate change, water shortages, tourist attractions and budgets and energy.

Kendra Clark:   36:33
They talk about like leave no trace principles. And that's one of the big things I talk about. Plan ahead and prepare. So get your maps and figure out what permits you need. You're out what equipment you need, but also like, be conscientious of what your own abilities actually are and what the abilities of the people who are with you. Because nobody wants to get caught somewhere where they don't have what they need or they don't have the capabilities to move forward or back. You don't want to get stuck.

Amber Williams:   36:57
I went on the Beehive Trail attic a DEA Because the oh, what was the other trail? It was closed, but it was a very difficult trail. And so I did the Beehive Trail and it tells you at the beginning, like, do not do this trail if you're scared of fights And I could tell you I'm scared of heights, but I was like, Oh, it's a national park. It will be fine. It was kind of scared me a little bit. I will be honest like there were parts. I was like, I don't know if I can do this just because I'm afraid of heights, but yeah, so I think that concludes today's episode. You can find MME. Or on Facebook at my blank matters on Instagram at Why underscore Underscore matters and until then the next.